@OC
Give up, there are only one or two here that have any idea what you are saying.
The rest are talking to hear themselves talk.
A true waste of your time to lower yourself the the diatribe shown here.
There are some of us folks around that are decent and understanding. Any one who can use profanity like some here deserve to live in the gutter where the profanity came from.
Yea, I said that, and don't matter,what you come back with, I already know what you think of me.

Josh, you can have the last word...try making it a clean one.. if you are intelligent enough to do so. If not just show you butt and continue...
ole Blake

Hi lostcauses... and many thanks for that Dateline link. I may have programmed it for Tivoing but I'm not sure so those videos (downloadable with Firefox and Flashgot are very welcome. I doubt that any additive will give the appearance of better mileage. The way Lee and his people get the added mileage is simply by lying. When the mileage is properly and objectively measured as by Dateline's expert and on their dynamometer, nothing changes with Lee's gizmo except that you get slightly better mileage with the device off than with it on. Sort of like you get better running time from a turnee-wheelie-thinggie with the magnets removed than with them on.

[quote]Maybe Mary could collaborate with Dateline and help the FTC with their case. Looks like Dateline has some good evidence and witnesses. Oh, and let's not forget Desertphile. I'm sure he would like to help too. [/quote]In case you didn't notice, Dateline doesn't need us or anyone else. They caught Lee and the mechanic in some obvious lies. It's tedious to listen to the whole lengthy video and I've gotten only about 1/2 way through the many clips but so far I heard enough to think Lee will be convicted of criminal fraud and possibly (hopefully) contempt of court. He had an SEC injunction lifted by a judge based on what one of the alleged witnesses clearly says was forged documents-- "I never signed it, I never saw it, it was the wrong date, it's very funny" says the guy in the clip.

I also am not sure what you believers are so incensed about. Dennis Lee is the lowest most obvious common denominator of really dumb fraud. I mean, in this instance, how difficult is it really to test mileage on a car? It takes an hour or so -- with a modern car that has a driving computer, even less. You do have to have an IQ in the double digits. I doubt 007 for one would qualify.

I feel badly for OC about his situation. Unfortunaly the DA's and courts and commissions can only go after the worst offenders. Dennis Lee finally qualifies for attention because this scum bucket is bilking poor people at a time when the economy is causing them untold pain. He's lower than slime. I'd love to see him in jail for the rest of his worthless life.

maryyugo:
I feel badly for OC about his situation.

My situation isn't bad. I had a dream. I'm investigating the potential significance of that dream. It hasn't been as simple as I would have liked, but I'll keep going until I learn enough to decide for myself.

I was just suggesting that you might be able to get some gratification with something like the Dennis Lee issues. Lord knows you've brought his name up enough times. You've been spinning your wheels here at Steorn for quite a while. Think it'll ever come to anything?

Think *what* will ever come to anything? I'm not spinning any wheels (anyway, magnet motors won't spin). I'm enjoying learning more about how believers think and the extent to which they will delude themselves -- amazing.

In case you misunderstood, not sure if you did, I was referring to your experience with the scam busting, not with magnet motors.

Dateline did a beautiful job with Dennis Lee. I doubt that his earnings will be as good from now on. Eventually the law will nail him.

Assuming, and that can be risky, that the FTC chases down and obtains affidavits contradicting those Dennis Lee presented to fight the injunction, he faces a world of hurt. Judges don't like perjured testimony.

[quote][cite] maryyugo:[/cite]Think *what* will ever come to anything? I'm not spinning any wheels (anyway, magnet motors won't spin). I'm enjoying learning more about how believers think and the extent to which they will delude themselves -- amazing.

In case you misunderstood, not sure if you did, I was referring to your experience with the scam busting, not with magnet motors.

Dateline did a beautiful job with Dennis Lee. I doubt that his earnings will be as good from now on. Eventually the law will nail him.[/quote]

As for an additive, the method of checking fuel consumption is to fill up a tank, drive it for awhile and refill tank. This is the scientific method used by Lee and others with such a device.

The real tests are done with a flow meter to measure how much is going into the system from the tank.

Additives can do a couple of things. Boost the fuel so it get a bit more per gallon.
It also will have a chemical reaction to the fuel itself. Does any one from way back remember the claims of how much mileage one would get with additives?? This was also thrown out the door when real test were done. They had to stop saying the untrue claims of mileage increase due to flow meter tests, after the filler up test method.

Ahh the games folk play to make a buck off of others.

You can buy Josh's Super Mile Saver Additive for just $12.95* for each 8 oz power packed bottle. It's guaranteed to increase your mileage by 5% or your money back. You'll start seeing the savings with the first bottle. Just follow our simple instructions:

Monthly treatment
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You should start seeing savings on the first tankful. The catalysis is enhanced by working in the additive with slow steady starts, and coasting to stops whenever possible.

Remember, we guarantee the results or return any unused product for a full purchase price refund. Order today!






*$3.95 shipping and handling for each bottle.

[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]As for an additive, the method of checking fuel consumption is to fill up a tank, drive it for awhile and refill tank. This is the scientific method used by Lee and others with such a device.

The real tests are done with a flow meter to measure how much is going into the system from the tank.

Additives can do a couple of things. Boost the fuel so it get a bit more per gallon.
It also will have a chemical reaction to the fuel itself. Does any one from way back remember the claims of how much mileage one would get with additives?? This was also thrown out the door when real test were done. They had to stop saying the untrue claims of mileage increase due to flow meter tests, after the filler up test method.

Ahh the games folk play to make a buck off of others.[/quote]

$300,000.00 for a dealership. ROTFLMAO
Hey Josh Funny stuff man.

Would you like to bid on a distributorship for Josh's Super Mile Saver Additiive? I can give you a prime South West territory that includes Tonapah and Winnemuca for just $50,000.

[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]$300,000.00 for a dealership. ROTFLMAO
Hey Josh Funny stuff man.[/quote]

>all the debunkers, and activists that want to put him away,



Huh?

I'd want to put him away if proved he is scamming people NOT because I want to debunk his claim.

Really OC, I'd always given you credit for remaining outside the MiB conspiracy club, but that statement above seems to say otherwise.

RunningBare:
Really OC, I'd always given you credit for remaining outside the MiB conspiracy club, but that statement above seems to say otherwise.

Where did I claim any MiBs or conspiracies?

What is with you folks going on about OC. He is not a scamer or ever condoned such that I know of.

overconfident:

Where did I claim any MiBs or conspiracies?

all the debunkers, and activists that want to put him away,

Maybe I read it incorrectly, but the statement does appear to imply that people against his claims of free energy want to put him away when in fact it's people against his scamming that want him put away.

RunningBare:all the debunkers, and activists that want to put him away,

Maybe I read it incorrectly, but the statement does appear to imply that people against his claims of free energy want to put him away when in fact it's people against his scamming that want him put away.

Actually, I worded it that way because I felt it was a fair representation for either aspect, free energy claims or scamming. I see those aspects tightly linked.

overconfident:
Actually, I worded it that way because I felt it was a fair representation for either aspect, free energy claims or scamming. I see those aspects tightly linked.

Words to keep in mind when reviewing the next free energy claim.

That Nightline and the on line videos-- those are big eye openers. Anyone with doubts about Lee can now be sure. He out Tillied Tilley! He's such an OBVIOUS RANK SCUMBAG crook, it's hard to believe anyone gives him money but a lot of people do and did. I mean how difficult is it to measure mileage on a car and compare it to claims? 96 miles per gallon claimed for the Honda Accord in the test video? It actually got 34 mpg. just as it did before the Lee gadget was installed. Some believers are incredibly gullible.

The test they do is to fill the car, drive it for a time, refill it and use that to get the mileage. Now this can be easily messed up by not fully filling it, or when additive is put it for a time expands in the tank.
This is an easy thing to do to even fool the installers. Now if they be part of the scam well it is in the fill up.
[quote][cite] maryyugo:[/cite]That Nightline and the on line videos-- those are big eye openers. Anyone with doubts about Lee can now be sure. He out Tillied Tilley! He's such an OBVIOUS RANK SCUMBAG crook, it's hard to believe anyone gives him money but a lot of people do and did. I mean how difficult is it to measure mileage on a car and compare it to claims? 96 miles per gallon claimed for the Honda Accord in the test video? It actually got 34 mpg. just as it did before the Lee gadget was installed. Some believers are incredibly gullible.[/quote]

Copy of email I just sent to Sterling Allan:

Hi Sterling,

Dateline recently did some investigative reporting regarding Dennis Lee's claims to increase car gasoline mileage with their HAFC which you feature here on your site: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:HAFC_Hydro_Assist_Fuel_Cell

To be fair and complete, you may want to consider including links to these very clear and objective videos. In summary, Dateline arranged to have HAFC installed by a certified installer on a Honda Accord 4 cylinder (one of Lee's most successful choices according to his web site). When the car was returned to them, they were told it was doing 96 miles per gallon highway. When they tested the car using objective methods and a dynamometer, they found it got 24 miles per gallon just as it did before it was converted. Turning the converter off actually improved the mileage slightly. Lee's only explanation during a brief interview was that "it doesn't always work".

Here are the video (and transcript) links.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29899191/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#30059812
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#30059873
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#30060021
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#29914835
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#29914807
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#29914782
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#29914763
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/30059812#29914749
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29947584
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29947584/#storyContinued

Thanks for considering the inclusion of this material. Please contact me if you have any questions or comments about it.

Best personal regards,


M. Y.

cc: Steorn forum -- Dennis Lee string here:

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=61619&page=3#Item_18

edit to correct typo: 24 mpg should have been 34 mpg (before and after)

Update on the FTC's lawsuit:

1. Dennis Lee and company have now conceded they do not have the right to a jury trial. So the eventual trial on the merits of the case will be before a judge, not a jury.

2. The preliminary injunction hearing, which resulted in a magistrate's decision that a preliminary injunction (requested by the FTC) should not be issued, was recorded by an audio recording rather than by using the services of a court reporter. When the FTC began working on its appeal of the magistrate's ruling that no preliminary injunction should be issued, it learned that the audio recording of the hearing was unintelligible. Because (the FTC argues) it cannot adequately prepare its appeal, and the reviewing judge will not adequately be able to review the magistrate's ruling, another preliminary injunction hearing should be held. Dennis Lee and company are opposing the request for a new preliminary injunction hearing, arguing among other things that the court should first see whether the quality of the audio recording can be digitally enhanced, and that in any event the FTC should not be given another bite at the preliminary injunction apple. The court has not yet ruled on the FTC's request.

FTC v. Dutchman Enterprises, LLC et al.
U.S. District Court, District of New Jersey
Case No. 2:09-cv-00141-FSH-MAS

If the FTC gets another shot at the injunction, they would be smart to track down the affiants as Dateline claimed to and obtain notarized affidavits from each and everyone. If as Dateline claims, the affidavits supplied by Dennis Lee are fraudulant, Dennis Lee is cooked.

It will not matter much if Dennis Lee gets convicted, in the grand scheme of things he is a petty crook and nothing more, some of the FE proponents will see him as some kind of hero who is being suppressed by the state, the most tragic thing about this is even if he is convicted, after hes paid his due's he will most likely be back in business.

RB but of course he is. But this time they may do to him what they did to poor Paul Pantone. You see big government uses the guise of massive fraud to spirit away the real innovators and protectors of society into jail. Dennis Lee has an engine that runs on Aqua Velva and pickle juice. Big government cannot let this revolutionary innovation reach market. Dennis is toast. They'll get him into jail and microwave his mind just like they did to Pantone.

You know Madoff is innocent don't you? Yes, Madoff is just another victim of the MiB. He was planning a recovery plan of his own that would restore riches to everyone in America. As former head of the NASDAQ you know he had the means. Big government couldn't let that happen, so they used the big banks to soak up his assets. A visit from the MiB let him know what would happen if he put up a fight.

[quote][cite] RunningBare:[/cite]It will not matter much if Dennis Lee gets convicted, in the grand scheme of things he is a petty crook and nothing more, some of the FE proponents will see him as some kind of hero who is being suppressed by the state, the most tragic thing about this is even if he is convicted, after hes paid his due's he will most likely be back in business.[/quote]

Well, RB, I don't think so. Here is Sterling Allan's take on the information I provided regarding those Dateline videos which show Mr. Lee for what he is-- Sterling wrote a whole new section about Mr. Lee:

[url]http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:Dateline_Accuses_Dennis_Lee_of_Fraud[/url]

Whatever else, Sterling does make a big effort to be objective and fair, if, IMHO, a bit overly optimistic.

Edit to add: Sterling also found this million dollar challenge to those who think adding hydrogen to an internal combustion gasoline engine makes a big difference in fuel consumption (mileage):

[url]http://aardvark.co.nz/hho_challenge.shtml[/url]

However the challenge is suspended due to the economic conditions-- I don't quite understand that but that's what it says.

@Mary

Your preaching to the choir, I already replicated the HH0 setup and as usual discovered the big bang is short lived, IOW you do get a big bang out of HH0 but this is offset by the very very short duration, of course this is where a lot a folk make the mistake, "wow big bang, must be a lot of energy!", they either conveniently or ignorantly forget to take duration into account, if they did, they would discover the overall energy has no gain.

@RB

Data or STFU, please.

There's nothing surprising about a bang if you combine hydrogen and oxygen and ignite it. That's done in chem lab before you even get to high school (USA). Bangs have nothing to do with measuring mileage. The "problem" of measuring mileage approximately is totally trivial. Many modern cars do it in real time with an on board computer and display it for the driver! That Lee EVER gets away with ANY part of his scam is an indictment of public education and general level of practical intelligence in his pool of moronic clients. Every last one of those installers should have been in small claims court for every one of their dumb installations. And Lee should be in jail.

@RB,

Aren't you glad Mary is on your side?

overconfident:@RB,

Aren't you glad Mary is on your side?

Well I am kinda wondering if she is reading my post's correctly, the fact that I am just one of many that disproved HH0, oh well, I guess she just likes the adversarial process.

RunningBare:Well I am kinda wondering if she is reading my post's correctly ...

You weren't posting in Queen's English, were you?

Oh... all I'm saying is that RB is being unclear. What the hell is a "big bang out of HH0"? Talking about an explosion? What? I just didn't understand what RB said. It sounded like he was saying it's understandable that people get fooled. It's snot. If I missed some humor, maybe it was a bit too subtle (euphemism for clumsy).

PS: I bet 007 (and others) really thought Dennis Lee was beating the tar out of the SEC... uhhun.

maryyugo:Oh... all I'm saying is that RB is being unclear. What the hell is a "big bang out of HH0"? Talking about an explosion?

No joke, I was just stating how easily folk mistake the energy from HH0 as being something more than it is, I've popped a few HH0 bubbles with a lighter and they give a deafening bang, folk mistake this for a lot of energy, they failed to take into account the burn time, petroleum for instance has a much longer burn time allowing a long push on the piston.
I'm steering clear of technical jargon, 1. because I don't know most of it, 2. because neither do most folk who fall for the HH0 scam.

MaryYugo, it's the FTC going after Dennis Lee. The SEC regulates stocks. Dennis isn't selling any at least not any that we know of.

RB is correct that hydrogen burns faster than gasoline. This is a fact that a lot of the nuts and scam artists have latched onto:

[url=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V3F-4BYNMN8-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f8924f3ef80219fbe80073be5ec4f6f8]Recent research article[/url]. Not that this does what the HHO nuts claim in terms of mileage. Popular Mechanics ran a series of articles in 2008 debunking the on board hydrogen gadgets.

Hydrogen enrichment is not all bad. But the amount of hydrogen needed to do any real good is orders of magnitude greater than what these toys sold over the internet and by Dennis Lee can produce, and there are additional catches: all the energy to electrolyze water for the hydrogen comes from the alternator which on many cars is only about 40% efficient, driven by the engine which is on a good day 25% combustion to mechanical efficient, into an electrolysis cell which is limited to about 83%, but is more typically about 40% efficient. IOW 20 times as much gasoline energy has to be consumed as is saved by the hydrogen. It's a good thing those hydrogen generators are small or they would kill gas mileage.

[quote][cite] maryyugo:[/cite]Oh... all I'm saying is that RB is being unclear. What the hell is a "big bang out of HH0"? Talking about an explosion? What? I just didn't understand what RB said. It sounded like he was saying it's understandable that people get fooled. It's snot. If I missed some humor, maybe it was a bit too subtle (euphemism for clumsy).

PS: I bet 007 (and others) really thought Dennis Lee was beating the tar out of the SEC... uhhun.[/quote]

A long push on the piston isn't by itself a good thing. ICE engines have a lot of compromises. From a straight Carnot cycle, we ideally want the gas pressure to rise instantly and then remain constant as the combustion chamber expands ( which is of course impossible ). The more that the combustion chamber expands while the gases are burning, the lower the thermodynamic efficiency. Of course the problem we would encounter with instant pressure rise is that sort of thing blows holes through the pistons and cylinder heads.

[quote][cite] RunningBare:[/cite][quote][cite] maryyugo:[/cite]Oh... all I'm saying is that RB is being unclear. What the hell is a "big bang out of HH0"? Talking about an explosion? [/quote]


No joke, I was just stating how easily folk mistake the energy from HH0 as being something more than it is, I've popped a few HH0 bubbles with a lighter and they give a deafening bang, folk mistake this for a lot of energy, they failed to take into account the [b]burn[/b] time, petroleum for instance has a much longer burn time allowing a long push on the piston.
I'm steering clear of technical jargon, 1. because I don't know most of it, 2. because neither do most folk who fall for the HH0 scam.[/quote]

maryyugo:Oh... all I'm saying is that RB is being unclear. What the hell is a "big bang out of HH0"? Talking about an explosion? What? I just didn't understand what RB said. It sounded like he was saying it's understandable that people get fooled. It's snot. If I missed some humor, maybe it was a bit too subtle (euphemism for clumsy).

PS: I bet 007 (and others) really thought Dennis Lee was beating the tar out of the SEC... uhhun.

Mary. I have only ever heard of Dennis Lee through people like yourselves who are so OBSESSED with him and taking him down. I honestly couldn't give a tiny rat's ass about Dennis Lee. I haven't the faintest idea about the man.

But what I do know is that you and josh and the debunker crew have a really unhealthy obsession with putting him away. Does that make you feel fulfilled in some way? I'm learning so much about how you're closed minds work.

Can't you take up my suggestion of going after the real crooks? Banks, Real Esatate Agents, Insurance, Bailout Money??

Free Energy Scams Carried Out On 5,000 members of the public.
Finanacial Scams Carried Out On 3,000,000,000 members of the public.

See where you guys are in this equation? Isn't it time you put you're time and effort into something worthy? There's more people that get ripped off by buying gardening gloves than do by free energy scams.

Is it not that you were perhaps suckered in by one of these scams in the past? That would sure explain why you have such contempt for free energy folks?

Can't you take up my suggestion of going after the real crooks? Banks, Real Esatate Agents, Insurance, Bailout Money??

Some crooks don't even realize they are crooks, I'd suggest you think about that but I don't really think that's your best attribute.

RunningBare:

Can't you take up my suggestion of going after the real crooks? Banks, Real Esatate Agents, Insurance, Bailout Money??

Some crooks don't even realize they are crooks, I'd suggest you think about that but I don't really think that's your best attribute.

You're right. When the fat cat bankers are paying themselves bonuses in the MILLIONS with tax dollars while people lose their homes then they know fine well that it's all above board. How dare those people protest.

Anyway, back to Dennis Lee. A worthy target. (sarcasm mode off)

"Anyway, back to Dennis Lee. A worthy target. (sarcasm mode off)"
Ask folks that have been taken if he is a worthy target.

Hell some one burglarize your home is unlikely to take you for as much as this guy does..

Now as for the financial crap, HMMM does not having the capital for them instruments (derivative) constitute fraud??

I wounder.

lostcauses10x:"Anyway, back to Dennis Lee. A worthy target. (sarcasm mode off)"
Ask folks that have been taken if he is a worthy target.

Hell some one burglarize your home is unlikely to take you for as much as this guy does..

Now as for the financial crap, HMMM does not having the capital for them instruments (derivative) constitute fraud??

I wounder.

Please explain how Dennis Lee can take as much as someone who burgles my house? Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?

Who are the masses of people taken in by Lee? I'm willing to bet they number less than the population of a small village, compared to the massive financial frauds and pension funds being looted daily by others.

If I asked 100 people walking down the street who had stung them for the most money - Banks, Insurance, Finance Houses or Dennis Lee, I think you'd be hard pressed to even find one person who knew who the smeg he was?

Only Mary Yugo, Josh and some other debunkers give a $hit. How ironic that we are yet to hear from even one single person who HAS been scammed by Lee.

Are you sure this isn't a persoanl vendetta?

007:

Please explain how Dennis Lee can take as much as someone who burgles my house? Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?

Err, your loyal fans who were taken by Archer Quin?, gave him donations and then he did a bunk, careful now 007 you don't want to be calling your fans stupid, they might take offense.

"Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?"
Are you stupid enough to have valuables worth stealing in your house??
Are you stupid enough to give your money to financiers??

Not a wise statement on your part is it?

Oh, but unlike the people who believe Dennis Lee's impossible stories and give him money, the people who believe Steorn's impossible stories KNOW they are true. You see they have been admitted to the secret inner circle of the Orbo cult. They know church secrets!
[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]"Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?"
Are you stupid enough to have valuables worth stealing in your house??
Are you stupid enough to give your money to financiers??

Not a wise statement on your part is it?[/quote]

Yes it does seem Steorn is using that method. It does bypass per review which most likely would fail them from the get go. All hail the great orbo, as you learn and grow we will move you up level, until you get to see the great orbo. Eventually we will let you touch one, and even really tell you the truth of the aliens that gave it to us, to help save the world from our stupidity. If you grow in our spirituality (Opps I mean science) we will let you in on our secrets.

[quote][cite] joshs:[/cite]Oh, but unlike the people who believe Dennis Lee's impossible stories and give him money, the people who believe Steorn's impossible stories KNOW they are true. You see they have been admitted to the secret inner circle of the Orbo cult. They know church secrets!
[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]"Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?"
Are you stupid enough to have valuables worth stealing in your house??
Are you stupid enough to give your money to financiers??

Not a wise statement on your part is it?[/quote][/quote]

Don't forget that each level of knowledge comes with a fee.
[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]Yes it does seem Steorn is using that method. It does bypass per review which most likely would fail them from the get go. All hail the great orbo, as you learn and grow we will move you up level, until you get to see the great orbo. Eventually we will let you touch one, and even really tell you the truth of the aliens that gave it to us, to help save the world from our stupidity. If you grow in our spirituality (Opps I mean science) we will let you in on our secrets.

[quote][cite] joshs:[/cite]Oh, but unlike the people who believe Dennis Lee's impossible stories and give him money, the people who believe Steorn's impossible stories KNOW they are true. You see they have been admitted to the secret inner circle of the Orbo cult. They know church secrets!
[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]"Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?"
Are you stupid enough to have valuables worth stealing in your house??
Are you stupid enough to give your money to financiers??

Not a wise statement on your part is it?[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I do not know about a fee, but such would not jolt me on such a layout.
Reminds me of Scientology stuff.

[quote][cite] joshs:[/cite]Don't forget that each level of knowledge comes with a fee.
[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]Yes it does seem Steorn is using that method. It does bypass per review which most likely would fail them from the get go. All hail the great orbo, as you learn and grow we will move you up level, until you get to see the great orbo. Eventually we will let you touch one, and even really tell you the truth of the aliens that gave it to us, to help save the world from our stupidity. If you grow in our spirituality (Opps I mean science) we will let you in on our secrets.

[quote][cite] joshs:[/cite]Oh, but unlike the people who believe Dennis Lee's impossible stories and give him money, the people who believe Steorn's impossible stories KNOW they are true. You see they have been admitted to the secret inner circle of the Orbo cult. They know church secrets!
[quote][cite] lostcauses10x:[/cite]"Don't you have to be stupid enough to give him money in the first place?"
Are you stupid enough to have valuables worth stealing in your house??
Are you stupid enough to give your money to financiers??

Not a wise statement on your part is it?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Lee is quite determined to make this a large (and fragrant) scam. How low does one have to be to target consumers during an economic downturn? Well... as low as Dennis Lee.

I recently filled out a questionnaire to receive a quote on the PICC. PICC if you don't recall, is Lee's "preignition catalytic converter" which makes your fuel into a plasma (sure it does). So far nobody has seen a PICC. Which is probably just as well. Anyway, what I got instead of a quote is a solicitation to buy the "Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell (HAFC) kit"-- the same device found useless by Dateline's testing.

The text of these messages, too large to post here, is replete with weasel words-- I decided to post it [i]in toto[/i] by simply stuffing it into a free blog from freeservers.com. I apologize if the pages pop up some ads but it's a convenient place to put this crap. If you can't read it, please let me know and if you know a better way to display stuff like this, let me know that also. Here are the links (the blog name is arbitrary -- maybe piccyournose would have been more appropriate):

[url]http://pickyournose.faithweb.com/cgi-bin/blog/view_post/534135[/url]

[url]http://pickyournose.faithweb.com/cgi-bin/blog/view_post/534136[/url]

Although comments are enabled, I'm probably not going to read them there -- best to put them here. If you're curious, when you sign on to Lee's web site as directed with your email address and password, you get only a blank page that says it's still being prepared.

Lee (and Otto) seem to think that offering to return the price of the unit will help them with the FTC (yes, Joshs, I confuse FTC with SEC, thanks!). But I don't think they will make good on that offer which is additional fraud. Even if they do, who refunds the $1000-2000 typical installation price? And what will the wondrous PICC cost when/if it's ever available?

See if you can count the number of lies in each mailing. Clue: it's all lies except for the phone number and the perp's name. Consider this one:

"Some of our HAFC customers with 4 cylinder applications have experienced even greater than double increase in mileage and are getting over 100 MPG with just this "first step". "

Really? Where are these people and their amazing vehicles? Mr. Lee didn't seem to be able to steer Dateline to them. The interview would have been a good time for a "reveal".

How about this whopper:

"But, many of our customers, especially those who drive vehicles with the bigger engines, the complete system will be necessary to give them well over [b]100 miles per gallon, which we predict will happen even with today's larger pickups & SUVs."[/b] (my emphasis)

When an SUV gets 100 mpg in a proper EPA test drive due to one of Lee's lame gizmos, I'll personally kiss his ugly ass, right on nationwide TV if he prefers. If on the other hand, he is, as I am sure, lying like the thief and convicted felon that he is, then I suspect he will get plenty of alternative ass kissing offers when he finally gets to jail.

maryyugo
Lets go over the test procedures.

"23) How do you measure the before and after fuel economy results?

The Orange test outlined below compares oranges to oranges scientifically and is the only way to accurately measure your fuel economy.
Caution - DO NOT use your cruise control on wet or icy pavement!

Arrow Find a freeway (or non-congested stretch of highway) with at least three lanes going in both directions and an entrance and exit ramp on both sides (or a designated u-turn area). It should be the straightest and most level strip of roadway available to you. There must be a filling station at your chosen starting point.
Arrow Stop at your start point and fill-up your vehicle on the slow flow setting until it clicks off the first time (this could be anywhere from 90-95% of capacity depending on make & model but will be the same every-time with the same pump).
Arrow Travel at least twenty miles or more to a designated u-turn and head back to your starting point. Use cruise control to maintain a constant speed of 55, 65 or whatever mph in both directions.
Arrow Return to the filling station you filled up at and re-fill your vehicle at the same pump exactly as before.
Arrow The amount of fuel used to travel your chosen distance (must be a minimum of 40 miles or 65 kilometers) will determine your fuel economy under controlled highway conditions.
Arrow Divide the total distance traveled by the amount of fuel used to calculate your miles per gallon, miles per liter or kilometers per gallon/liter (or use our easy fuel economy calculator tool)."

Ok this is a typical set up for using tank volume for fuel mileage. Not the best test in the world but give one an idea.

Ok here is the next part of this game:

"The vehicle must be scientifically tested for fuel economy according to our published mileage test procedures before installation. A mileage test must be done both before and after the HAFC has been installed and tuned. The test results of your vehicle before installation must be recorded on the Mileage Test Calculation Form provided in the manual and the gas receipts, initial and return top off, to prove it must be saved."

Don't get me wrong here there is good reason for this crap, it is a part of Lees game.

I love this one

"The kit buyer will be responsible for refurbishing costs, if any, incurred by seller to restore the kit to resalable condition."

Ah your refurbish cost will be high I can assure you of that part if you ever get them to acknowledge receipt of the item.

"The kit buyer will be responsible for refurbishing costs, if any, incurred by seller to restore the kit to resalable condition."

Pretty much like the Perendev generator terms and conditions. You can get a refund as long as you return it to them in working order. Problem is of course that it never worked in the first place so to get a refund you first need to invent a perpetual motion machine.

Just the same with Lee. To get a refund you need to invent a device that will achieve Lee's claimed results.

Now what does this statment mean??
"the savings performance was not at least 50% increase in fuel economy"

From the literal English language usage this means if you were getting 30 MPG, and after install you get 16MPG you are with in this range.


A 50 percent increase, is a negative.
Whos fault is that if you do not understand 50% is half of what you were getting??


ROTFLMAO. Got to think like a lawyer or advertiser to read this crap.

LC10x,

Not quite so. A 50% increase over 30 gives a result of 45. It is an addtion of half the existing and not a change to half the existing. It is the increment that is 50% of the original and not the final amount. The final amount is the initial amount plus the increment, hence 30+15 = 45.

Just like when you say a 10% increase in the price of eggs doesn't mean that they come to cost one tenth of what they did.

Like testing a robust overunity device, only way simpler, testing a car for really large changes in fuel consumption is **extremely** easy. Sure, you can use a test track but it isn't necessary. For example, my car has a mileage computer. This shows that average mileage over 1000 or more miles, mostly city driving, is **always** consistent within plus or minus one mile per gallon. A 50% increase (hell, a 10% increase) would be highly obvious within a couple of thousand miles of driving at most -- about a month for the typical USA driver. As for PRECISE testing, you can use precision GPS, a fifth wheel with a sensor, or a dynamometer to measure distance and you can supply fuel directly to the car from a precision graduated cylinder or calibrated container instead of the fuel tank. But nobody needs anything like that for this sort of test unless they have to do it quickly.