http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/

I am decidedly not up to speed in the art, Certainly there are those who are...
The creator of them must have an opinion...
Thanks in advance, (and thanks modervador, for some initial thoughts...)
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

(some re-posts to follow...)

(From Modervador)

Just remember that each voltage peak represents the highest rate of change of magnetic flux through the coil, not the highest flux. So for example a positive peak might represent a rapid switch from N to S, and a negative peak is a rapid switch from S to N.

That said, the symmetry_t#.jpg scope traces are not surprising. The upper and lower traces show basically the same thing, displaced in time in time because of the angular difference between the coils. The coils are apparently hooked up in opposite polarities, consistent with being hooked in series and grounded at the center tap.

The readings from the two coils in dual_1.JPG are likely different because the null of the stator field lags a few degrees behind the null of the rotor field, so the coils do not see the same flux changes vs rotor angle. It would be interesting to see if the upper and lower traces reverse if the rotation is reversed, or how they change according to RPM.

Is there a better thread for this particular discussion?


CommentAuthormodervador CommentTime42 minutes ago permalinkquote

vibrator:
i's interesting that some of the phases have early shadows, and others later.
It looks to me like a little bit of jitter in the trace that's being used to trigger the scope sync for multiple sweeps. A single-sweep storage scope would fix this effect. They used to use a special phosphor for that, these days it's usually digital.

CommentAuthorDirtfarmer CommentTime41 minutes ago edit permalinkquote

If you create one, I am sure we will follow... I think it deserves it, but I am by no means able to head the discussion...
Good insights, by the way...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

CommentAuthorDirtfarmer CommentTime16 minutes ago edited edit permalinkquote

modervador,
A few questions,

1. Is it likely that the difference in magnitude, (presuming 20mv/div) between A and B is purely related to coil air gap? (Not precise placement)
2. We had seen a 6 peaked form( +&- )in the symmetry 2 pic.. Why is it that we still see a fundamentally 6 peaked saw in "dual"?
Is this unexpected?
3. Can we say that Trace B (top trace) is more energetic than Trace A in "dual"?, Or is there not enought information...
If so, would this not be unusual?
It would seem to imply an imbalance between the two points... (and hence a potential... )
(I understand that potentials as that always exist in a waveform, but here it "seems" constant... and only divided by equi-distance(big presumption) on an arc..
Please forgive my ignorance...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Dirtfarmer: (continuation from the other thread) 2. We had seen a 6 peaked form( +&- )in the symmetry 2 pic.. Why is it that we still see a fundamentally 6 peaked saw in "dual"?

Actually, there are 4 (and a bit) periods in the symmetry_2 trace, as it shows 5 ms/div => 50 ms/display and the rotor rotates 1250 RPM => 60000/1250 = 48 ms per turn. So all eight magnets come along in 50 ms window, but the pairs are opposite oriented, hence 4 periods, or 8 parts in 4 pairs. The same goes for symmetry_1/stator magnet reading, because those two speeds have to match as in a wheel.

The interesting part of the dual trace is how it's changed. The smaller peaks seem mitigated in the upspin part and its energy being added to the bigger ones instead (assuming that the amplitude difference is not caused by something else). And the second thing, the downspin trace seems sloped to the right. What does that mean I don't know...

Slashman,
I believe you about the 8 pairs passing in the 50ms window, however, do you count 8 "peaks" , per 90deg, I only count 6... This would make some sense... for example( RotorN, statorS(motion),RotorS statorN (motion) >>>>>>>>>>>>to next 90deg)
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Can this plot be even rectified? We should still have equal stator accel/decel... What causes can be blurring the slopes other than accel/decel, and how could it be evident in "downspin"A but not "upspin", they are both experiencing the same accel/decel of the stator?
I understand that one would have to lag the wave form of the stator and thence consider how it modifies the rotor "output", but even so, we do seem to be seeing quite different EM profiles... I suppose I would expect a shift, classically, and thence cancellation, et al, but not a deformation...
What am I missing?
Quite a bit, I am sure...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

(On closer examination PRESUMING, that the largest peak is the rotor poles, it appears to confirm my theory that the opposing pole of the stator is rapidly flipped out of the way, (somewhat not surprisingly,) but as a result of the variable timing of the stator(not originally my idea), (and the torque diff, between r and s,) the attraction can operate over a longer frame... (EDIT: NAHHH That's not what I mean... What the hell do I mean?!)
If true,
Wild.
(Was going to write more, but will keep from embarrasing myself..) ..(but I WILL keep entertaining myself!)
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

I've made a composite image of all three traces. Green is original dual_1, blue is the rotor reading, red is the stator one. But I'm not sure if I've aligned it right in time, the bottom one looks plausible, the top one is weird.

Edit: swapped blue/red...

@dirtfarmer, I'll try to answer.

1. in the case of the symmetry traces, yes. In the dual_1.jpg, the different peak height is dominated by the different rate of flux change.

2. The 6 peaks per period are probably because of the same changes in rotor flux in symmetry_t2 and dual_1, however in dual_1 the stator flux superimposes on the rotor flux to alter the shape.

3. I'm unsure of the energetics of this. The flux through the coil is proportional to the integral of the voltage, but the integrated force of attraction between rotor and stator on the "upspin" and "downspin" regions is not necessarily the same as what could be discerned from what the coil measures at this position.

/:

Dirtfarmer: (continuation from the other thread) 2. We had seen a 6 peaked form( +&- )in the symmetry 2 pic.. Why is it that we still see a fundamentally 6 peaked saw in "dual"?

Actually, there are 4 (and a bit) periods in the symmetry_2 trace,

Count the number of peaks in a single period. One major positive peak, one major negative peak, 4 minor peaks.

Edited to clarify and to add: The negative half is a mirror image of the positive half, corresponding to the situation after 45 degrees of rotor revolution and 180 degrees of stator revolution.

Duplicate From Other Thread:

Dirtfarmer:Harvey,
http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/
Still compelling. (EDIT: but possibly merely showing stator accel/decel... The wave heights still seem remarkably assymetric to me, however... )
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

There is clearly an energy differential here. I would need the sensor to be turned 180 and another dual trace taken to rule out coil differentials. And then again by swapping leads to average the channels. Assuming everything is balanced the leading trace (A) is missing energy which tells me it could be it is being converted to K.E. Keep in mind when reviewing these signals that coils are wound the same but the leads are swapped which inverts the signal on the scope.

As the induced field collapses in the sensor coils we see a small inductive push that carries on otherwise the dead zone between rotor pulses would be flat. The sub peaks you see are the stators influence on the field. The maximum available energy for the sensor peaks midpoint between the two coils with the rotor leading stator for A and the stator leading rotor for B. At first glance I thought perhaps we were feeding B with induction from A and thats where the energy was going, but if you look at it I think you'll see this isn't the case.

Does any of the replicators have a Gauss meter to read the field in front and behind the stator in operation?

modervador:Count the number of peaks in a single period. One major positive peak, one major negative peak, 4 minor peaks.

Oh, *these* peaks, thanks for pointing out, modervador (and sorry for creating confusion, Dirtfarmer).

modervador: The flux through the coil is proportional to the integral of the voltage, but the integrated force of attraction between rotor and stator on the "upspin" and "downspin" regions is not necessarily the same as what could be discerned from what the coil measures at this position.

Understood, but it would seem that the "area" encompassed is greater in B than A.
I thought this would imply greater energy .. (equal peak,(volts) longer duration...)
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

I still cannot make hide nor hare of symmetry t2..
Why 6 peaks per 90deg without stator?
I am sure this is not important of itself, but I believe it is to fundamental understanding...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

As far as the timing goes I see 4 cycles in 9cm with a setting of 5ms this translates to 5333 RPM on the stator. Each cycle is ~11.25ms

Not knowing the precise seperation of the coils or the exact radius at which it was placed I ballparked a 3" radius from the rotor center and came up with about .4189" per ms. There is a ~ 2ms between A & B which is about .8378" or a little less than 7/8" Comparing that to the size of the Judson Dampers I think were in the ball park. This confirms the inverted signals.

The orignal single trace centered shows the operational phase angle to be well centered. Combining the two tests helps us to see there is a differential between the for and the aft. And any time we have a differential...

And people wonder why Al has been quiet...

Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Dirtfarmer:I still cannot make hide nor hare of symmetry t2..
Why 6 peaks per 90deg without stator?
I am sure this is not important of itself, but I believe it is to fundamental understanding...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

There is a dead zone along the axial of the magnet as the transistion is made from N to S and vice versa. Normally this would be seen as flat. But in the case of an inductive pickup there is a bit of push as it reaches zero. The greater the inductance the greater that push.

Edit: Perhaps a couple of Hall Effect Sensors are in order here

You'll have to teach me about that arcanity sometime...
Thanks...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

modervador:

/:

Dirtfarmer: (continuation from the other thread) 2. We had seen a 6 peaked form( +&- )in the symmetry 2 pic.. Why is it that we still see a fundamentally 6 peaked saw in "dual"?

Actually, there are 4 (and a bit) periods in the symmetry_2 trace,

Count the number of peaks in a single period. One major positive peak, one major negative peak, 4 minor peaks.

Edited to clarify and to add: The negative half is a mirror image of the positive half, corresponding to the situation after 45 degrees of rotor revolution and 180 degrees of stator revolution.

Just to clarify: Each cycle is representative of 90 degrees of rotor and 360 degrees of stator. There are 4 complete cycles in 9cm

/:I've made a composite image of all three traces. Green is original dual_1, blue is the stator reading, red is the rotor one. But I'm not sure if I've aligned it right in time, the bottom one looks plausible, the top one is weird.

I think you have the mnemonics backwards. It should be blue is rotor, red is stator.
POST EDIT:
I just had a good look at the 'blue' and you will see the sync is way off from the green. I think we should shift the images to align blue with green and then overlay red.

A question along those lines, (not really, I know those are identified.. easily..)
I know that you Harvey, put forth for the original traces that the max amp. peaks are the rotors', but why would that be when the stator is a higher gauss magnet, spinning 4 times as fast?
(EDIT: proximity, I suppose...)
TIA,
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Dirtfarmer:You'll have to teach me about that arcanity sometime...
Thanks...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Just think of the minor peaks as the very first pulse in an inductive ring.

/\
/ \ /\
/ \ / \ /\
/ \ / \ / \ /\_________________________
\ / \ / \/
\ / v
\/

But the next impulse comes before it can ring.

Gotcha,
I am surprised it cannot be easily tuned out wrt impedance.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Harvey:I think you have the mnemonics backwards. It should be blue is rotor, red is stator.

(thanks, corrected)

Dirtfarmer:A question along those lines, (not really, I know those are identified.. easily..)
I know that you Harvey, put forth for the original traces that the max amp. peaks are the rotors', but why would that be when the stator is a higher gauss magnet, spinning 4 times as fast?
TIA,
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

The rotor flux is a compsite of two magnets aligned at an angle and we thus benefit from a greater immersion. Additionally, because the fields are in oppostion between rotor magnets the field spreads out and peaks at the centerline between them. This combination creates an hourglass field around each stator magnet. the pinch in the middle of this field (along the magnet body) is what we see as the dead zone which is being pushed up by the sensor coil induction. The field surrounding the stator is more spherical in shape. Thus it creates a sine wave pattern as it rotates.

Besides, I confirmed these waveforms in my mockup as well

Harvey:

modervador:The negative half is a mirror image of the positive half, corresponding to the situation after 45 degrees of rotor revolution and 180 degrees of stator revolution.

Just to clarify: Each cycle is representative of 90 degrees of rotor and 360 degrees of stator. There are 4 complete cycles in 9cm

Bizzactly. Each cycle in the scope consists of a positive half (45 rotor deg) and a negative half (another 45 rotor deg).

You boys are a real hoot. All those scope pictures are meaningless without knowing the scope settings and where the probe is placed and the attenuation of the probe.
Take a probe and touch the end with a finger and take a picture. It would closely match your pictures.
What do they teach people these days.

The location of the dual pickup coil is clearly shown for each of the traces under discussion, and the scope settings are clearly stated. 5 ms/div horiz, 20 mV/div vert. Refer to http://yirkha.fud.cz/steorn/alsetalokin/Dual%20Trace/ .

Without knowing the parameters for the coil, the V/div scope settings and the attenuation of the probe are useless data anyway. Those who read scope traces for a living know that there is still plenty you can divine from such traces even without an exact calibration on the vertical scale.

"Finger pick-up" traces are at the mains frequency (or a harmonic). At 5 ms/div, the full screen is 50 ms. There are about 4 cycles of the wave form. This comes out to about 80 Hz. Which country uses 80 Hz for mains?

And you, Nova, are a troll.
I asked for help.
We have this information:
Dual trace readings with new sensor coil
Unit rotation rate ~1250 rotor, 5000 stator

5 ms/div horiz, 20 mV/div vert

A on bottom, B on top, coil A upspin, B downspin.

Dual_1:is the trace from active zone
postion_1: coil position
pos1_flash: same as above but flash frozen
sensor_pair: the coils
symmetry (various): showing coil symmetry in various positions

Now, ... elsewhere, I noted that perhaps we did not have enough info, BUT the question is,
WHAT CAN BE SAID?
I think, again, you are inaccurate in your absolute, just as you were with the ratios... (Tell me again how the ratios don't affect the relative angular momentum?)
"Uh, Uh.. it does 4:1 because of the magnets..."
No Shit, Sherlock....
What can you say about interpreting those traces... presuming the given info is correct..
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

... Edited for further thought..
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

I stand by my previous statements regarding the traces.

As far as Nova being a troll...Nova, what is your purpose in life?

I want to see a cartoon with pink unicorns, white rabbits, a farmer, a troll and...

Bump...
Al,
What can you tell us about your testing thus far, (and your thoughts on the traces..)
Also, what are your thoughts on the increased gauss when the "device" was running... (Or was that a joke...)
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

Harvey:I stand by my previous statements regarding the traces.

As far as Nova being a troll...Nova, what is your purpose in life?

I want to see a cartoon with pink unicorns, white rabbits, a farmer, a troll and...

How does nova speaking the truth qualify as trolling?

How do you define trolling?

Anything you don't want to hear or disturbs the grand delusion?

Let me scribble a line with no reference, upload it and call it a trace...

I mean are you people freaking kidding me?

I know Al is kidding me, but, wow.

I have to thank Al for illutrating just how whacked "freenergy nuts" really are. Even ones who sound like they are educated.

Trolling is what you are doing, causing trouble where other's are trying to have a (drawn-out) conversation...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
-That's you, Bill?

andromeda:Let me scribble a line with no reference, upload it and call it a trace...

Wow...2 trolls

Read up a few posts you'll find the ref's. Oh wait... I forgot, some trolls can't read

ER...reference like the FREAKING REALITY of a REAL VIDEO...HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How the fuck do you know what the fuck you are looking at?

Al's word?

Quite presumably,
yes.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

What's Culvert Hill Farm, and why does it want to give me a cookie when I log onto this thread?

alsetalokin:What's Culvert Hill Farm, and why does it want to give me a cookie when I log onto this thread?

Dirtfarmer's icon.

Dirtfarmer's avatar?

Yep.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

In answer to you, Al...
"culverthillfarm.zzn.com" is just a free web-mail site, (zap zone network) as for the cookie, Obviously commercial, but likely not Google integrated, etc.. (I suppose it is possible...)
Can change avatar if it offends...
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer

(edit for "offends"

modervador: Dirtfarmer's avatar?

Err yes, I operate an online 3D world, I'm used to avatars as being 3 dimensional and little 2 dimensional images as icons.

..And I know nothing about it.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
(Signed up a "culverthillfarm" account with them, that's all... when my avatar came up as it does, I thought, "That's enough...".)

RunningBare:

modervador: Dirtfarmer's avatar?

Err yes, I operate an online 3D world, I'm used to avatars as being 3 dimensional and little 2 dimensional images as icons.

I was responding to Al's question, not your response. Apparently, I was just slower to hit "submit".

I've seen people here refer to the 2d representations as avatars, but in fact, your definition is consistent with the account information of this forum. I am now richer for the discussion.

andromeda:ER...reference like the FREAKING REALITY of a REAL VIDEO...HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How the *edit* do you know what the *edit* you are looking at?

Al's word?

I'm sorry Andromeda, I was just being facetious. I had no Idea it would elicit such a negative response. My apple leegies.

I know what I'm looking at because I duplicated the same waveforms in my MockUp and after 30 years of looking a scope traces I kinda know what makes what look like what. Addtionally, Al has given me absolutely no reason to doubt his word. I took a freeze frame of the tach readings and compared them to the scope timings and these also support Al's claims. I have looked at Clanzers data and it too supports the claim that these stators can rotate in AGW sync at high speeds. I have ran my MockUp in AGW and provided stroboscopic evidence that also agrees with Als highspeed flash stills. With all this evidence any logical man would be able to deduce that Al should be given, at the very least, the benefit of any doubt.

If you have mathematical evidence that proves his device cannot work you can post it in the WhiPMag Math & Physics discussion. Most of your negative comments remind me of a cat walking across the keyboard. Doesn't amount to much on screen and sure does get in the way of others working. Lighten up and try to help. If your a skeptic then help the skeptics prove he's wrong. If not, then team up and help solve the puzzle.