@/,

Whatever you are willing to do and you think will contribute best to understanding this beast.

edit: I'm hoping Al will jump in one of these days with a set of high-speed images showing the relationships in actual operation.

[quote][cite] overconfident:[/cite]I think Al is just trying to psych himself up to face the new day. Believe me, I know the feeling.[/quote]
OC, I know you can't speak for Al, but it seems that you're in a similar state of mind. So, if you don't mind my asking, why are you two in such a funk? I just don't understand how this whole process has driven Al, who I know only through this forum as an extremely intelligent, well educated, versed in many fields, grounded in reality, and generally well humored type of guy, to stay up all night drinking Irish coffees and needing to "psych himself up to face the new day".

You've made similar comments; things like needing to "put the pieces of your life back together" or needing to disappear back to normal life. We've all (you, Al, me, others) been spending a lot of time here on this forum, you with your vision, Al with this and other topics of interest (I love his discussions with Vibrator), others debating this and that. I mean, for many of us this forum is as much a part of normal life as sleeping.

So, why the funk? Your life's pretty much the same as before, no? You just have more people interested in what you have to say here.

blueletter:

overconfident:I think Al is just trying to psych himself up to face the new day. Believe me, I know the feeling.

OC, I know you can't speak for Al, but it seems that you're in a similar state of mind. So, if you don't mind my asking, why are you two in such a funk? I just don't understand how this whole process has driven Al, who I know only through this forum as an extremely intelligent, well educated, versed in many fields, grounded in reality, and generally well humored type of guy, to stay up all night drinking Irish coffees and needing to "psych himself up to face the new day".

You've made similar comments; things like needing to "put the pieces of your life back together" or needing to disappear back to normal life. We've all (you, Al, me, others) been spending a lot of time here on this forum, you with your vision, Al with this and other topics of interest (I love his discussions with Vibrator), others debating this and that. I mean, for many of us this forum is as much a part of normal life as sleeping.

So, why the funk? Your life's pretty much the same as before, no? You just have more people interested in what you have to say here.

Not quite. At the moment, I don't have a life. I need to get this over with. I haven't been out of the house for almost 2 weeks now. I haven't had a good night's sleep in at least that long. I've forgotten to eat several times. My work productivity has fallen to record lows. My wife is ready to divorce me. And I have some other pressing personal matters I need to attend to.

[quote][cite] overconfident:[/cite]Not quite. At the moment, I don't have a life. I need to get this over with. I haven't been out of the house for almost 2 weeks now. I haven't had a good night's sleep in at least that long. I've forgotten to eat several times. My work productivity has fallen to record lows. My wife is ready to divorce me. And I have some other pressing personal matters I need to attend to.[/quote]
All since the video came out? I'm not trying to minimize what you're going through, I just don't understand how the video and the (internet) attention has had such a negative impact on your life.

Perhaps there isn't an answer, it just is. I can accept that and am perfectly happy to let it be. I'll shut up now (at least on this subject).

blueletter:

overconfident:Not quite. At the moment, I don't have a life. I need to get this over with. I haven't been out of the house for almost 2 weeks now. I haven't had a good night's sleep in at least that long. I've forgotten to eat several times. My work productivity has fallen to record lows. My wife is ready to divorce me. And I have some other pressing personal matters I need to attend to.

All since the video came out? I'm not trying to minimize what you're going through, I just don't understand how the video and the (internet) attention has had such a negative impact on your life.

Perhaps there isn't an answer, it just is. I can accept that and am perfectly happy to let it be. I'll shut up now (at least on this subject).

Since before that. Ever since I became aware of the possible implications of the Alstalokin effect.

Hey OC,

One significant benefit of the open source way in which this discovery was made is that you don't have to accept personal responsibility for saving the world if it turns out to be real free energy.

You can say you've done your part already. This goes for Al, too.

I don't know what you do at work, but I bet you're pretty good at it, right? And I bet you don't really want to start a new life doing the Joe Newman thing instead. Well, don't worry about it. Even if it works, you don't have to.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

It may not count for much, but again I thank you OC and Al for your tireless, "rewardless" work in the face of difficulty and adversity. Your efforts will not be wasted. Even if the end result is that people learn more about physics and magnetic effects with no OU, maybe somewhere down the road it will help science to do something else useful for humanity.

We remember times of struggle, awful as they feel, because that's sometimes when we're most alive.

It must be all the black helicopters flying overhead that's ruining OC's sleep
I'm kidding, of course. I do hope that you can strike a balance between this and your personal life... and if you cannot, your family should always come first. There are plenty of people here that are willing (and able, I think) to take what you have done and run with it until you feel you can return.

Get some sleep!

Sunshine falls on the WhipMag?

@alsetalokin

Did it run all night?

Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0

Now, what did that prove?
This endurance type stuff abviulsy needs to be done in the Faraday cage.
I must do some work, I'll try to post more this evening if I can stay awake.
--Al

AL -
Sorry if I missed it, but the stator mag is one of the smaller three, and the rotor is the large disc in the center right? For some reason, I was under the impression that the rotor got up to the 5000rpm mark, not the stator.

So, in the video where it speeds up once the other 2 stator mags are stopped, the loud whine we hear is the stator mag speeding up?

Thanks for clarifying!

Bloody hell!

How long was that?

Anyone remember what time it started?

In summary...

[quote][cite] alsetalokin:[/cite]For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.

I started it at 02:14. [b]blueletter note: 11 Jan 2008[/b]
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.[/quote]
[quote][cite] alsetalokin:[/cite]Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0[/quote]
7 hrs. 26 min.

Edit: Beaten to it.

Hi Al,
Is that 9hours 43 minutes run time or just the time that you stopped it?

Couple of questions for you:
Have you tried with just a single stator magnet rather than the 3 as shown in the video?
The thickness of the rotor is 3/4" (HDPE material), do you think this contributes towards a flywheel effect that smooths out the syncing process?
In other words a rotor of a thinner dimension will not sync.

Have you sent the device to OC so he can test it too?

I have ordered the same magnets, need to get the HDPE, hope to follow in your big footprints....;o)

Regards
Rob

ryandinan:AL -
Sorry if I missed it, but the stator mag is one of the smaller three, and the rotor is the large disc in the center right? For some reason, I was under the impression that the rotor got up to the 5000rpm mark, not the stator.

So, in the video where it speeds up once the other 2 stator mags are stopped, the loud whine we hear is the stator mag speeding up?

Thanks for clarifying!

The rotation speeds are in 1:4 proportion when in sync.

@AL

Know what you mean about the sore finger now, after playing all day with half the size stator magnets.

Will save my skin for the proper size now me thinks :) :)

Well, to quote Ian Hislop - If seven and a half hours ain't free energy then I'm a banana.

blueletter:In summary...

alsetalokin:For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.

I started it at 02:14. blueletter note: 11 Jan 2008
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.

alsetalokin:Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0

7 hrs. 26 min.

And he stopped it manually...of course, nothing to see here, move along

ad impact on "real life" -
I think that one of the most exhausting parts of all this for Al & OC must be answering the same questions, explaining, thinking about others' ideas, all again and again with generosity and amiability. One would almost thought of the "help-desk syndrome" or something.

CLaNZeR:@AL

Know what you mean about the sore finger now, after playing all day with half the size stator magnets.

Will save my skin for the proper size now me thinks :) :)

Grimer:Well, to quote Ian Hislop - If seven and a half hours ain't free energy then I'm a banana.

Hey some people take a long time having a jacuzzi

alsetalokin:Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0

Now, what did that prove?
This endurance type stuff abviulsy needs to be done in the Faraday cage.
I must do some work, I'll try to post more this evening if I can stay awake.
--Al

I would really, really want to know how long it will run if not stopped.

Not to keep you awake much longer, although you could stick it in a sound-proof Faraday cage.

7 hours, 26 minutes.



Once again...



The only thing more disheartening than a PMM that doesn't work, is one that "appears" to.

You're lying, pulling our collective leg, right Al?

Further down the rabbit hole...

Ratio = 4.0016

blueletter:In summary...

alsetalokin:For some reason it seems to be working rather well tonight. The rotor rpm is 1334, the stator rpm is 5378. It was difficult to start, it took maybe 20 flips of the stator magnet in all before it "caught". But I am developing a thumb technique that is easier than the finger.

I started it at 02:14. blueletter note: 11 Jan 2008
It is pretty noisy with the bearings chattering and growling, but I think I might be able to sleep.

alsetalokin:Shut down by stopping stator mag at about 09:43
RPM just before shutdown: Rotor 1257, Stator 5030
Al's sleep time = 0

7 hrs. 26 min.

So that is a reduction in rpms of 77 (5.772%) for the rotor, and 348 (6.471%) for the stator - over the course of 446 min. Pretty impressive, really - especially considering the friction involved.

Hey Al, get some rest. I don't know about the "others" but I'm happy to wait until someone else builds one and tests the holy rollers out of it. Anyway, seven hours is impressive. I hope it works that well for others. That magnet store advertises very fast service so hopefully we won't have long to wait.

MORATORIUM

I still think we should let OC asnd Al work this out and not communicate with them for a while (unless they ask some of us to -- I'm sure that the real experimenters would be more than willing to share emails).
Of course we are all jumping up and down in our non-OU pants, even curious dumb foreign bystanders like yours truly. But what OC said above about his personal life makes me think hard about the pressure all our continued postings are creating (including this one).
I don't know these guys, and I don't know physics, but I appreciate what they are doing and I do know what it's like to be under pressure. The adrenalin and the running running running until you burn out. They need time to work things out, and maybe if we don't badger them too hard, they will work better at it.
Alex

Quoted values 5030/1257 gives Ratio = 4.0016

Had the rotor been 1 rpm more then 5030/1258 gives Ratio = 3.9984

Well I think we can safely call that a ratio of 4. :big smile:

I agree with shunyacetas.

I think it's up to them if they want to communicate or not but yeah, I hope this weekend they forget about their machine if they want, go for a walk or something and GET SOME SLEEP. We'll still be here when they get back. I doubt I would sleep if I was them.

I have my fingers crossed that this gets replicated soon not just to prove the concept but to take the pressure off OC and Al. Also some really cool tests can be run by others such as a slow mo giving away the magnet positions and also a regular plot of RPM's as the thing slows. Perhaps it is a curve that levels out at a certain point.

Here's hoping...

We need some replications stet...I have to keep reminding myself they're coming soon...

/:ad impact on "real life" -
I think that one of the most exhausting parts of all this for Al & OC must be answering the same questions, explaining, thinking about others' ideas, all again and again with generosity and amiability. One would almost thought of the "help-desk syndrome" or something.

While I agree with some of this, it should be remembered that OC and AL have made no specific claim, so the choice wether to answer all these questions is theirs.

Like AL and OC I've had plenty of sleepless nights.

I do appreciate what AL is going through and I thank him for taking the time, the thing I'm having a problem appreciating is the cavalier attitude...7 hours so what does that prove, anyone here got a plastic disk with several magnets to spin at a couple 1000 rpm for 7 hours with no apparent external energy source?

Grimer:Well, to quote Ian Hislop - If seven and a half hours ain't free energy then I'm a banana.

I dunno... I mean, it certainly would appear to require some sort of extra energy to keep the thing going for over 7 hours (and likely much longer), but can we really get too excited yet?
The thing that really impresses me is the acceleration phase of this device.
If Al were to just spin this thing up to say, 600 rpm with his thumb, and it ran at that speed, while slowly reducing in rpm over 7.5 hours, then I'd say that it was just a really good, low-friction, spinning wheel. But that damn acceleration phase has me really baffled... and at the same time, hopeful that it is somehow tapping (at a very low level at this point) some new force or energy source...

It's obvious at this stage, that the magnets allow it to accelerate up to a certain point, while helping the rotor overcome most of the friction encountered. This, logically, does imply that there is some energy being utilized... from somewhere... But how much is really needed to do what we observe? Can it possibly come from the magnets alone? From what I understand, there is little energy stored in magnets, so it makes me doubt that they are the sole source...

That ratio couldn't be better if they were joined by gears. That must mean something.

I think I get it now...PMMs run on insomnia...they only work while watched

I wonder if I'd be able to sleep with that thing in the same/next room either.

F*** me sweetly. This is excellent news. But please, FFS get some rest.

Revel in your time, enjoy it, make the most of it. But first get some sleep.

We'll all still be here when you wake up, refreshed.

Grimer:That ratio couldn't be better if they were joined by gears. That must mean something.

It's the only reasonable ratio. Each rotor magnet turns the stator by 180 degrees. There are eight magnets on the rotor. Go figure.

@ RunningBare

> Like AL and OC I've had plenty of sleepless nights.

Join the club says me rubbing the sleepers out of my eyes.

Grimer:@ RunningBare

> Like AL and OC I've had plenty of sleepless nights.

Join the club says me rubbing the sleepers out of my eyes.

And what do you call this emotion that causes the sleeplessness for scientific types? As a creative, I can have huge bursts of energy but they leave me blissfully tired. For you, is it "obsession"?

RunningBare:While I agree with some of this, it should be remembered that OC and AL have made no specific claim, so the choice wether to answer all these questions is theirs.

I know it's their choice, in fact. But at least from my experience, I sometimes wanted to help everyone around, just because I knew I was able to and I was happy to do that, without realizing that it's quite impossible to accomplish.

RunningBare:Like AL and OC I've had plenty of sleepless nights.

I thought it's normal. Is it not?

[quote][cite] /:[/cite][quote][cite] Grimer:[/cite]That ratio couldn't be better if they were joined by gears. That must mean something.[/quote]It's the only reasonable ratio. Each rotor magnet turns the stator by 180 degrees. There are eight magnets on the rotor. Go figure.[/quote]

Yes - but it means no slip. It means it is akin to a quasi-chain connection between the two rather than a belt connection, say.

For some of the values the other night the ratio was not exact.
5338/1315 = 4.06 for example.

I've seen loads of tests in the SPDC were people have been spinning all kinds of things with magnets on and none of them have spun for more than single figure minutes. I challenge anyone to make a wheel of similar weight, without magnets, spin for a tenth as long as the WhipMag.

RunningBare:
I do appreciate what AL is going through and I thank him for taking the time, the thing I'm having a problem appreciating is the cavalier attitude...7 hours so what does that prove, anyone here got a plastic disk with several magnets to spin at a couple 1000 rpm for 7 hours with no apparent external energy source?

Don't scientists take a lot of convincing to accept something that doesn't fit with what they are used to?

Grimer:That ratio couldn't be better if they were joined by gears. That must mean something.

Do we know the dimensions of the stator and rotor? Weights of each? Mass?
Could these somehow relate to the 1:4 ratio? Or do you think it's more a function of the magnet strengths?

couldbe:
Don't scientists take a lot of convincing to accept something that doesn't fit with what they are used to?

Well we all know what would happen if AL was to suddenly claim OU, the questions presently would be tame in comparison, not to mention the abuse, then people would start shouting for him to take the JREF challenge, then the antigravity tinfoil hat mob would start...well I think you get the picture.

[quote][cite] ryandinan:[/cite][quote][cite] Grimer:[/cite]That ratio couldn't be better if they were joined by gears. That must mean something.[/quote]

Do we know the dimensions of the stator and rotor? Weights of each? Mass?
Could these somehow relate to the 1:4 ratio? Or do you think it's more a function of the magnet strengths?[/quote]
As has been pointed out, it's the ratio of 4 rotor magnets to 1 stator magnet. Think of two gears, one with four times as many teeth as the other.

Don't get too excited. If there is a lot of potential energy stored in some form, it's just being slowly used to rotate the parts at balanced speed with lowest drag. Make a trip to your local museum and have a look at the oldish analog mechanical clock - there is a spring, which is pulled on and it then turns a sprocket through some nifty daedal mechanism with predefined speed and amazing precision for months.

>there is a spring, which is pulled on and it then turns a sprocket through some nifty daedal mechanism with predefined speed and amazing precision for months.

And it accelerates to 5000 rpm? (stator)

Yep, and now we have windup lights, radios, mobile phone chargers, just imagine...